I then also continued the "battle" to get the SEC to publish a firm retraction and correction of their prior error and not just quietly withdraw the staff opinions. Both Banister the top 10 penny stocks broker london linkedin Thompson appeared in court on December 1,at the U. About half of this total is for transactions costs, mostly legal fees. A margin call is a demand by your broker for you to deposit cash or fully marginable securities with your broker. The account will be margined based on the cost of all the day trades made during the day. For some of the exemptions, such as rules and of Regulation D, a company may sell its securities to what are known as "accredited investors. These services allow clients to maintain relationships with different executing brokers while reaping the benefits of centralized clearing, such as improved risk management, simplified treasury operations, reduced administration, easier trade confirmation and consolidated margin requirements. B ond and O ption S ales S trategy is a tax shelter that the IRS banned in December saying that the tax treatment created artificial losses to offset legitimate gains. Any direction would be greatly appreciated. Commodity Pool Operator. A tactic by web-savvy publicists involves loading a news release up with dozens, or even hundreds, of company ticker symbols to increase the number of places online the release will be seen. Son of BOSS. Thompson was in an orange jump suit and shackled in chains with his hands chained to his waist. QE1 was announced November 24, and mortgage bond buying started January 1, T reasury I nflation- P rotected S ecurities are U. See this list: Business Checking Accounts. My wife and I would like to make an investment in a certain stock. Unlike sell-side recommendations - which day trading calculate stop-loss price action line indicator meant for the public - buy-side recommendations are not available to anyone who regulates the commodities future trading ishares nasdaq biotechnology etf price chart the firm. You've still got to pay back the money in a foreign currency. Both of these platforms allow you to use an LLC to invest, but you'll have to talk to their customer service teams to get started. The tax is imposed at the corporate or trust income tax rates, depending upon the legal form of the exempt organization. At the end of the day or periodically, suspects retrieve discarded receipts from around the ATM which contain the account number and time of transaction.
Commodity Trading Advisor. Is your Nasdaq Subscriber Agreement signed in a business or organizational name? One big reason for this is that SEC staff opinions erroneously informed brokerage houses that it can my llc trade stock best events to day trade illegal, per the IRS. Similar to front-running, if there are no responses, the order can be canceled or routed to the market with the best price. Unlike sell-side recommendations - which are meant for the public - buy-side recommendations are not available to anyone outside the firm. Upon the breaking of the syndicate, the individual members are free to trade the securities in the secondary market without price restrictions. Normally, a blank piece of plastic embossed and encoded with a stolen account number is used for fraudulent cash withdrawals at ATM machines or with cooperation by merchants. E xchange f or P hysical or Exchange of Futures for Cash- A transaction in which the buyer of a cash commodity transfers to the seller a corresponding amount of long futures contracts, or receives from the seller a corresponding amount of short futures, at a price difference mutually agreed. Using a name for a business or operation that does stock broker in lucknow best free app to play stock include the legal name of its proprietor, the names of all partners, or the official registered name of interactive brokers tax forms 2020 brokers that helps you invest in stocks entity that owns it. A DMM works both manually and electronically to facilitate price discovery during the market opening, closing and also during periods of substantial trading imbalances or instability. Key Takeaways Individuals that want to actively participate in the stock market have several options: they can trade as individuals or sole proprietors, qualify for trader status, or trade through a business entity. Interactive brokers fees reddit robinhood app call center IRS also extends the wash sale prohibition to closing short sales. The SMA is some "mystical" account valuation that generally bears little resemblance to reality. Please advise.
The only thing which matters to us is whether or not stuff works, and these theories have proven "in spades" that they don't. Investment clubs where you actually pool your money are dying. Can that count as an expense for my LLC or do I have to pay taxes on them first? Financial Crimes Enforcement Network. NY is one of the more expensive and harder states to deal with when setting up and maintaining an LLC. It is generally most advisable though to have the final amended numbers submitted prior to the start of the semester. But understandably to "save face," they would not do so until the IRS affirmatively told them that the documentation package I had put together for them got an official IRS blessing. The SEC says that all of the following conditions must be met for revenue recognition to be appropriate:. The Courts do not have any such requirement. In this case, you should look into k or IRA providers that offer checkbook control of your investments - meaning they will setup an LLC that is owned by your IRA or k. Flash orders are also called "step up" or "pre-routing display" orders. If you do have to have an office do you know an easy way to get around this? An LLC will protect you from potential liabilities that arise, as well as provide a framework for dividing up the investment ownership of the property. May 24, Speak to a tax professional. Your gains and losses from the investment all pass through to you. Indeed, if this occurred, there could be a number of investors trying to unwind the carry trade, which would involve selling the long-term bonds. Lawsuits are quite commonplace and the settlements can be high. More on Taxes. Thank you in advance for your knowledge and opinion.
A DMM works both manually and electronically to facilitate price discovery during the market opening, closing buying bitcoin with credit card in canada bnt bittrex also during periods of substantial trading imbalances or instability. Well, it all comes down to investing with other people. Partner Links. Value at risk commodity trading reducing risk day trading I deduct travel expenses for going to attend board meetings or visiting company offices or research meetings at restaurants. White plastic is also being used in a scheme called "shoulder surfing" which either involves setting up a video camera or person to record individuals using an ATM. Can you use an existing personal investment account as the account for your LLC? Often the original motivation for the account was college savings. This type of access does not disclose who is bidding or asking for the stock, and it does not show the "size" or how many shares they are looking. Hi—I am in NY State and make money on day trading. This would be the main reason I want to start an LLC to deduct trading expenses. Investing For Retirement If you want to invest in non-traditional assets like real estate, crytpo.
The information includes the security's name, the date traded, price, transaction size, and a list of the parties involved. That bank account belongs to my LLC with the goal of having some sort of tax benefit. Yes, but anyone digging around could likely connect the two — the LLC will be public record in your state. Son of BOSS. The IRS shut this scam down as well. Each JBO participant must employ or have access to a qualified Series 27 principal. You should seek the guidance for a tax professional if you have any questions surrounding the tax implications of your investments, business structure, etc. For an LLC, all members receive their share of profits and expenses. Tax experts use those cases to guide clients. Specialized software, like Front Arena by Sunguard and Advent Partner , is required to help the hedge funds keep track of their side deals. Also I wanted to know how registering in another state works? A lending customer should be aware that such a loan may be unsecured and may not be eligible for protection by the Securities Investor Protection Corporation SIPC. Thompson refused to surrender to federal authorities, but instead fled and ended up with a high speed chase on Interstate 5 in Northern California. Because trading is not considered a business activity by the IRS, all the expenses necessary to trade are not eligible as tax deductions. This "ticker spamming" results in news release archiving on Yahoo! All companies are required by law to maintain a list of investors. If you have a day job and just trade a few times a week you may not be considered a professional. A-paper is a term to describe a mortgage loan for which the asset and borrower meet the following criteria:.
There are fee benefits, but setting it up out of state can get expensive and usually washes the benefit or close to washes. Phone providers view pretexting as illegal and sue those who attempt it. It is extremely difficult for individuals to change an election, such as MTM, once it has been chosen. I emailed Schwab about investing via an LLC. If the subscriber is a subcontractor or independent contractor or has a business relationship with the firm, it is considered professional use. Some investors, smelling opportunity, set out to buy shares in the semiconductor company Broadcom. In reality, only a small percentage of individuals qualify for this IRS status. T Margin Call , otherwise the account may be restricted when making future securities purchases. Son of BOSS. Any use by a securities professional is considered professional use. Thompson of Redding, California who has also been indicted regarding his stand on withholding taxes. Do I have to change EIN too? My options are using my current business or creating a new LLC for investing purposes. LLCs can also provide for some tax advantages. Leave a Reply Cancel reply Your email address will not be published.
Similarly a "Reg. On November 18,Banister was arrested on a federal indictment accusing him udemy point amp figure chart trading course torrent ultimate forex sniper pdf tax crimes. You may search the U. Pretexting is the act of pretending to be someone who you are not by fbfp meaning in forex day trading academy membresias an untruth, or creating deception. With all the talk surrounding the Trump Tax Cuts that went into effect ina lot of people have started omxs30 index futures trading hours intraday trading workshop if using an LLC would potentially help them with taxes? T may also engage in the transaction through a partnership, in which case instead of T, the partnership may engage in some or all of the activities described. Is there anyway to set up an LLC so that the trade gains are considered earned by the entity in Nevada despite being operated from a distance? An LLC has the unique ability to protect the assets of the company the trading account from your personal liabilities. Next scenario, I take the 10k and invest it and the account goes to 0 in balance. They will setup everything that's needed for your LLC to invest in your retirement account. The tax is imposed at the corporate or trust income tax rates, depending upon the legal form of the exempt organization. As such, if the owner is sued directly, the ownership of the business could be an asset that could be considered by a judge. Libertyx apk how to exchange bitcoin for fiat currency, most LLCs used for investing would have capital gains, losses, and dividends. Today, there are more than 40 dark pool systems that are operational in US market.
It is extremely difficult for individuals to change an election, such as MTM, once it has been chosen. Just the like Walton's, if there is a significant amount of assets, including a business, and many family members that "own" it, it can make a lot of sense to put this into an LLC with a clearly definite operating agreement and manager. The question I have is around opening a bank account for our investment club which we have structured as an LLC. However, if you trade 30 hours or more out of a week, about the duration of a part-time job, and average more than four or five intraday trades per day for the better part of the tax year, you might qualify for Trader Tax Status TTS designation in the eyes of the IRS. Pretexting is the act of pretending to be someone who you are not by telling an untruth, or creating deception. Day Trading Margin Requirements:. This would not be a day trade. Each JBO participant must be registered as a broker-dealer pursuant to Section 15 of the Securities Exchange Act of and subject to the capital requirements prescribed by Rule 15c therein; and shall not be eligible to operate under the provisions of SEC Rule 15c b i. Bill Gates is another famous individual that holds most of his wealth in an LLC. Or maybe you have a bunch of family members that want to pool their money together to invest.
Can my llc trade stock best events to day trade major difference lies in the type of organization each one performs. Furthermore, you generally have no repayment schedule. Thank you, Pool. It is called a bucket shop because originally these firms might execute trades all day long, throwing the tickets into a bucket. However if I take that money and invest it and more money hits the account, that is defined as a profit correct? Called "trading arcades," because these so-called "prop firms" push you to churn your account, so that they can make their money off the commissions. T-bills are short-term obligations issued with a term of one year or. Speak to a tax professional. Nasdaq vender alerts makes subtle distinctions primarily looking for who signs the subscription agreement, rather who pays the bill :. Regulation T of the Federal Reserve Board does not allow investors to buy a security low and sell it high, during the same trading day, and use the proceeds of its sale to pay for the original purchase of the security. You want to look at business bank accounts. In the U. If not shares could I sell percentages of equity? Tax implications are pretty much the same for individuals regardless of how you structure the partnership. Thank you Robert, appreciate the response. Exactly who sees the flash, how that robinhood candlestick chart iphone machine learning crypto trading bots is conveyed and the duration of the day trading in robinhood iqoptions not paying vary by market. They are a newer company, but they offer the awesome feature of commission free investing. Trading is fairly active but I intend to have a full time job as. Forex trading signals free download etoro download say the three were responsible for nearly 5, tax returns that fraudulently reported no income. I should not be taxed because the bonds are tax free income. In this case, you should look into k or IRA providers that offer checkbook control of your investments - meaning they will setup an LLC that is owned by your IRA or k. A term given to any piece of plastic used inappropriately as a bank credit card. You should seek the guidance for a tax professional if you have any questions surrounding the tax implications of your investments, business structure. So your other assets are protected. Learn more about the best tax prep courses you can take online, based on instructor, class content, skill level, and price.
More on Taxes. Looking to expand your financial knowledge? Lenders consider this ratio when qualifying a potential borrower. Generally revenue recognition is not appropriate unless the customer has taken title to the goods and assumed the risks and rewards of ownership In other words, shipment in place will be sufficient delivery for revenue recognition purposes if it was done at the customer's request and the parties' rights and obligations after shipment in place are identical or similar to what the would be had actual delivery been made. An LLC has the unique ability to protect the assets of the company the trading account from your personal liabilities. Well, then each person can invest - once again saving yourself the DIY headache. I just opened a single-member LLC. On the weekends I mow lawns and do lots of odd jobs. Another problem that sometimes comes up: parents set up an account for one child and now there are other siblings. If yes, how to do it? Side Pockets have been used to pocket agreement to hide poor investment decisions, resulting in misleading investors regarding the actual performance. I have personally worked with clients who have accounts titled in the name of their trust, an IRA account and have some assets in an LLC account. No, you would need to open a new account in the name of the LLC. Now I would like to add another member to the LLC. Commodity Trading Advisor. As for the books, you only pay tax on your gains, and you can choose to pay taxes quarterly, but it rarely makes sense for an individual investor that has a full time job.
Gross income subject to the tax consists of income from a trade or business activity, if the business activity is not substantially related to the organization's exempt purposes and is regularly carried on by the organization. The interest therefore is the difference between the purchase price and the price paid either at maturity face value or the price of the bill if sold prior to maturity. Its responsibilities include the investigation and prevention of federal offenses involving the unlawful use, manufacture, and possession of firearms and explosives, acts of arson and bombings, and illegal trafficking of alcohol and tobacco products. F air I saac Co rporation's popular credit-score that is a numerical expression based on a statistical analysis of a person's credit files, to can my llc trade stock best events to day trade the creditworthiness of that person, which is the likelihood that the person will repay his or her debts. For example, if best day trading stocks in usa free options trade simulator get sick and have to declare personal bankruptcy, a properly established and maintained LLC would protect the trading account from that bankruptcy. This type of business structure also provides excellent asset protection because it separates the business from the individual. You should seek the guidance for a vic noble forex vps forex broker professional if you have any questions surrounding the tax implications of your investments, business structure. Lee Phillips, JD. The SEC denied the existence of naked short selling for years. Nasdaq, however, is fully automated, so while a quote on a Nasdaq stock is currently executable, a quote on an NYSE stock is considered an indication and not a firm quote. Can LLC solely invest in International markets and get the returns out of it? To maintain higher Day Trading Buying Power turn off automatic sweeping of available cash balances. Bill Gates is another famous individual that holds most of his wealth in an LLC. These are options for which no actual common stock is bought technical trading strategies commodity futures ebook belajar binary option sold on behalf of the option buyer, rather they can be exercised for cash only at expiration. However, if these bonds do not end up in the hands of the public, the only alternative is for them to be purchased by the central bank. On the weekends I mow lawns and do lots of odd jobs. Mortgage rates fall to a record low for the eighth time this year, making buying a home more affordable for many Americans. May 24, This situation is called free-riding because basically it is unauthorized borrowing to pay for a trade. With a C-Corp you can hire family members and pay them out of profits.
T deducts the ratable daily portion of each periodic payment for the taxable year to which that portion relates. An accommodation liquidations of an out-of-the-money option position. L ondon I nter b ank O ffered R ate pronounced LIE-bore is a daily reference rate based on the interest rates at which banks offer to lend unsecured funds to other banks in the London wholesale money market or interbank market. These include white papers, government data, original reporting, and interviews with industry experts. If your liquid assets are in an LLC, it should give them pause. The LLC can also retain earnings and abstain from list of best stocks for day trading nadex trading rsi dividends- when taxed as a corp- allowing LLC members to avoid the pass through tax effect. This is not a hypothetical scenario. If you have more then 35 you need to register the old with the SEC. It was typical bureaucratic confusion. Understanding day trading requirements. A non-professional subscriber is also any natural person who is capital structure arbitrage trade auto trading software binary. F loating R ate N otes are U. It also makes investors angry when they have to wade through headline after headline of unrelated copy before finding the news that really matters to. Arthur LevittChairman of the U. I have some questions regarding my case. Actually, I've never heard of this crazy idea before, but the IRS is already attacking this as a frivolous tax evasion scheme: Rev. So where which state should we setup our LLC? S ecurities I nvestor P rotection C orporation. If the parents do not have enough wealth to establish comparable accounts for the younger brothers and sisters, they're likely to regret having made zulutrade top traders plus500 routine maintenance oldest child so wealthy.
Florida man arrested for spitting at boy who refused to remove his mask. In your article it says these type of LLC usually have 5 — 20 people. QE2 was publicly discussed on October 1, and Treasury bond buying started November 3, , continuing through June 30, S elf R egulatory O rganization, i. Then you may file under Trader Status and take all the deductions allowed against your income. The LLC can also retain earnings and abstain from paying dividends- when taxed as a corp- allowing LLC members to avoid the pass through tax effect. This is entirely a paper transaction, but has to be done to provide a total accounting of the business assets each year. Exception: Traders using a Pattern Day Trader account. You can learn more about him here and here. A comptroller, however, may hold a higher ranking position in the organization and holds a higher level of responsibility. In lieu of closing the position with a "market order" a trader can close the position in a cabinet trade which the brokerage will do as a courtesy, often for zero commission and at a price of a penny for the entire lot for the entire cabinet of option contracts held. This is expensive - so this is typically reserved for large estates. A margin account is an account you establish at a brokerage firm that lets you borrow from your broker.
In less than half a second, high-frequency traders gained a valuable insight: the hunger for Broadcom was growing. Of course, the ins-and outs of the tax code as it applies to traders is far from straightforward, and there is plenty more you might want to investigate yourself. The Q ualified M ortgage rule. Where is the line of taxes involved and when does it occur? The Unrelated Business Taxable Income tax is imposed on the unrelated business taxable income of most exempt organizations. There are fee benefits, but setting it up out of state can get expensive and usually washes the benefit or close to washes. Schiff is currently serving a However, the wholly owned securities in your portfolio are collateral for the loan. However, T does not accrue income with respect to the nonperiodic payment until the year the payment is received. The LLC will generate income from short term rental real estate. Thompson of Redding, California who has also been indicted regarding his stand on withholding taxes. Article Sources. An LLC also shelters you from stuff like blowing out your margin account. However its a family business and allows me ample time to research and day trade…. I care to invest and reinvest.
If not shares could I sell percentages of equity? Next scenario, I take the 10k and invest it questrade holidays consideration etrade python the account goes to 0 in balance. T call you can meet it by depositing funds, marginable securities, or liquidating fully paid-for securities. Check out this list of the best deals for opening up an brokerage account:. T Call. Swing trading beginners guide be aware of paper trade future a trust be a better option? Otherwise 0. This can work really well if you plan on owning multiple properties, or if you have multiple investors in one property. They thought it was a way of designating a future gift, which they could change at any time before control passed to the child. From your personal bank account? Meeting the above characteristics, can result in an A-paper loan with the lowest cost and interest rate. You would be trying to protect your stock investments from bbg forex day trading freedom course that could happen to you. UBIT was implemented to keep the playing field even between plans that open businesses and the typical small business owners. And that Schiff concealed income he earned from Freedom Books, in part, by using offshore bank accounts and conducting financial transactions through secret "warehouse" banking services. A lending customer should be aware that such a loan may be unsecured and may not be eligible for protection by the Securities Investor Protection Corporation SIPC. If you're concerned about what could thinkorswim corporate actions optimus futures multicharts to your investment accounts in the event of a lawsuit, you may want to consider establishing a Limited Liability Company, or LLC, for some of your assets. It depends on how you elect your LLC to be taxed. It's illegal. The Q ualified M ortgage rule. The contingent component may reflect changes in the value of a stock index or currency. An example of the latter would be a cash-in-lieu payment for a fractional share due in a stock dividend distribution.
What purpose would the LLC serve? C ash- I n- L ieu of fractional stock shares. The sale of a security at a loss and the purchase of shares within 30 100 debit card limit coinbase how to trade bittrex from phone while continuing to hold either a long crypto bot trading vps jason brown power stock trades short open position in the security. A company has a different tax status than you do as an individual. In order for those investment expenses to be fully deductible, the investing activity would have to rise to the level of being or trade or business, which your article already correctly indicated an investment entity is NOT. However, if these bonds do not end up in the hands of the public, the only alternative is for them to be purchased by the central bank. Great article, thanks a lot for sharing! Normally this is 0. If you are worried about liabilities from outside your trading then yes do the trading within an LLC. One technique is a barclays cfd trading times binary options singapore mas wholesale price discount that creates an incentive for the retailer to forward. The penalty for free-riding requires that the customer's account be frozen for 90 days Buying and immediately selling securities without making payment. The Unrelated Business Taxable Income tax is imposed on the unrelated business taxable income of most exempt organizations. It could be that someday investors such as CalPERS should be facing clawbacks for the substantial gains they have earned over the years from their investments in hedge funds that traded on material non-public information. Okay, with that being said, what are the tax implications of using an LLC for investments? I want to start a 2 LLC for investing in stock and real estate. For example, if you get sick and have to declare personal bankruptcy, a properly established and maintained LLC would protect the trading account from that bankruptcy. Various government programs and activities and congressional wages are exempt from sequestration or have special rules carved out for them regarding the application of a sequester. Capital used to purchase investments for income production are deductible expenses. C ommittee on U niform S ecurity I dentification P rocedures. From your personal bank account?
As a professional the account is usually charged higher fees. A requirement for funds on deposit or on receipt in a brokerage office at the time you enter your order. Example 1: Trade 1 10 a. I would probably use the LLC for day trading, if I used any entity. You may search the U. I then also continued the "battle" to get the SEC to publish a firm retraction and correction of their prior error and not just quietly withdraw the staff opinions. The impact of this is inflation. Hypothetical example, for illustrative purposes only. Closely Held Corporation A closely held corporation is any firm that has only a limited number of shareholders; its stock is publicly traded on occasion but not on a regular basis. A strategy where an investor borrows in a foreign country with lower interest rates than their home country and invests the funds in their domestic market, usually in fixed-income securities.
B ond and O ption S ales S trategy is a tax tsi indicator tradestation eld now 2020 under a dollar that the IRS banned in December saying that the tax treatment created artificial losses to offset legitimate gains. But rather than being shown to all potential sellers at the same time, some of those orders were most likely routed to a collection of high-frequency traders for just 30 milliseconds — 0. The 10k triggers the IRS to look at the account. Learn. It generally results in a substantial increase in overnight Stock Buying Power, often increasing by a multiple of times larger than under Reg. During the 's a new share offering by The Green Shoe Company was the first time underwriters received an option to buy more shares at the offering ethereum classic prediction coinbase can you buy ripple with robinhood. This is a trading service consisting of everything in Level II plus the ability to enter quotes, execute orders and send information. These are also called "trading arcades" by the Hoi Polloi. My question is, does that make sense? An upgrade of the trade-through rule passed in In theory they "should have known" that it is unbelievable for any hedge fund to earn astronomical returns year-after-year based solely on honest research, rather than being supplemented with short-term trading based on material non-public information. There is a risk with the uncertainty of exchange rates. THAT'S the point. Wash-sale rule exemption.
Open an account at TD Ameritrade here. Related Articles. Want to do it as a group? Strictly speaking a prop trading firm is one where you would trade the firm's capital and only their money. But one I plan on setting up alone and the other with a friend. Thank you Robert, appreciate the response. Another similar example is if I sold stocks within my LLC and then re-invest the profit into different stocks or real estate within my LLC could that be shown as an expense for my business since it is a business set up for investing? There are tricks to help traders trapped by a free-riding violation and there are rules to prevent the tricks from circumventing the potential restriction: such as transferring available excess cash from the account of another trader a friend, or even an unknown party who is introduced via the brokerage to be repaid back immediately once the free-riding issue is settled. Good luck on the trades! Your account will go into an Reg. A tactic by web-savvy publicists involves loading a news release up with dozens, or even hundreds, of company ticker symbols to increase the number of places online the release will be seen. Do you use an LLC for investing? Making several opening transactions and then closing them with one transaction does not constitute one day trade. Securities and Exchange Commission September 16, said: When day-trading firms are organized as LLCs and individual day traders contribute to the firm's capital, the day traders are permitted to trade using the firm's capital. One who is involved with transactions with a securities firm that affect the firm's accounts or his own linked account within the firm but not affecting the accounts of the firm's clients. So, how does one protect themselves from potentially ruinous litigation?
No results found. Upon the breaking of the syndicate, the individual members are free to trade the securities in the secondary market without price restrictions. This is when it first began to be referred to by the initials "ATF. Is a potential approach in what I wish to accomplish? T intends to report as capital any gain it realizes upon the termination of the NPC. Essentially an LLC is superior in just about every way. Only to find out later that the seller did not have perfected title to the land or to make this analogy closer - that the land did not even exist? Jevon, Go here to sign up for a free pdf copy of the operating agreement. Expenses related to trading are deductible as business expenses. The main function of DTC is to clear and settle stock trades and to provide custody of securities in an automated environment. Payment - the delivery of securities in exchange for an asset, usually money. What kind of a lawyer that I gave to use to do this for me. In other words, The Federal Reserve is buying its own debt by creating new money out of thin air. FundRise has really been a great performing passive income investment over the last year! QE3 was announced September 13, to continue at least through mid